When Gregg Gethard was in 8th grade, he was selected to be a contestant on the PBS game show, *Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?* He had a hunch that it was going to be a strange day, but did not know to what extent it would be life changing. This is part one of a two part episode.
When Gregg Gethard was in 8th grade, he was selected to be a contestant on the PBS game show, Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?. He had a hunch that it was going to be a strange day, but did not know to what extent it would be life changing. This is part one of a two part episode. Part two will be released on June 7th.
The Gethard Family is Gregg Gethard, Chris Gethard, Ken Gethard and Sally Gethard. Special thanks to Greg Lee and Pinch Lee.
Rashomon is produced and hosted by Hillary Rea.
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Theme music by Ryan Cullinane (courtesy of the Free Music Archive).
Episode music by Paul Defiglia
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Hillary [00:00:05] I only had two computer games growing up, the Oregon Trail, and Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? I had them both on floppy disk and Carmen was my favorite. The goal of the game: travel from place to place to track down the international criminal mastermind Carmen Sandiego and her motley crew of villains. It was essentially a geography lesson disguised as a mystery. The best part of the game was watching a pixellated Carmen slide across the screen every time I got a question correct. Her hat was dipped down, covering her face and even on my parents' IBM green screen, she looked so cool and mysterious. A few years after playing the game, there was a Carmen Sandiego TV show on PBS. I watched it all the time after school and it was even better than the computer game. There were kids as contestants, a funny host and a sidekick, the chief. And the whole show was scored by Rockapella, a live a cappella band. And I could play along by answering the questions and solving the mysteries from home.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:01:22] All of these people want to know: Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? And one of these people could find her. Prima Thermali, Gregg Gethard...
Gregg [00:01:46] I was in eighth grade at Edison Middle School in West Orange, New Jersey, and it was awful. It was the worst. I was the smallest kid in the grade. I got picked on mercilessly. It was a terrible school. It was like not quite as bad as season four of The Wire. Like, it wasn't like that, but it was like it was closer to that than it would be to West Beverly High.
Hillary [00:02:11] Gregg Gethard is a friend of mine. I've known him for ten years. We met through the Philly comedy scene when he was hosting a monthly show called Bedtime Stories. It wasn't until a few years after we met that I found out about his big claim to fame, an appearance on the TV show Where in the World Is Carmen Sandiego? Of all my friends, he was the one with the coolest fun fact. It all started when Gregg was sitting in class one day.
Gregg [00:02:38] We were told we had to take this geography test and the test is like identify all of the states and also identify some European countries. We fill that out and no one thought of anything of it. And then a week or two later they made it. I think an announcement, I don't remember for sure, but there's going to be a sheet of paper outside the eighth grade social studies room. If you're on that list, it's from that test. It meana, you did very well in that test, go to the library. So I looked and I was, you know, on that list. And you go to the library, there's like these like 20 something upbeat, cool looking people. And they ask us, like, so how many of you have ever heard of this computer game? Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego? I heard of it because I was like a computer game. You know,I was like a nerd and everything. And like, well, we're planning to make a game show of that. It's not on the air yet. And we'd like to cast kids from your school. I remember the hunch I got that just this weird premonition that I was going to be called for this show.
Hillary [00:03:34] And he was called. Gregg made the interview round and he was told he was going to be on the show and was sent home with a folder to give his parents.
Gregg [00:03:41] I just always kind of knew my life was going to unfold differently than how a lot of people's lives would unfold.
Hillary [00:03:59] You are listening to Rashomon on a podcast where one family tells every side of the same story. I'm Hillary Rea, your host. This is the Gethard family.
Hillary [00:04:24] When Gregg got picked to be a contestant on Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego, he didn't know to what extent it would affect his life or how long his TV appearance would stay with him. Let's just say it's stuck around for a while. Growing up, Gregg was obsessed with current events and places. His younger brother Chris remembers the starting at a very early age.
Chris [00:04:46] This kid used to read the newspaper before going to school when he was in kindergarten. It was really weird. Like I remember I'd be like obsessed with Marvel Comics and I'd be like, oh, did you know that in this issue, Wolverine wasn't always in X-Men and he started as an enemy of the Incredible Hulk, and then he started that. My brother's version of that would be like, I know the capital of every nation on Earth. I know the capital of every state. If it used to have a different capital, I know what capital it was before that, like everything with him was like geography and memory. And he always was a genius level kid. In my mind I was like, nobody can fuck with my big brother when it comes to geography.
Hillary [00:05:21] Gregg was also really good at memorizing things that had to do with sports.
Chris [00:05:25] And it was a thing in our neighborhood where any college basketball team you could name any college and he would know their nickname when he was 10 years old.
Gregg [00:05:32] To the point where my uncle wanted to take me to bars and be like, I bet like he can name every team he name, give him like 20 nicknames and he'll tell you who they are. If he gets and if he if he gets one wrong, I'll give you 50 bucks. And if he gets one right, you all give me 50 bucks. And my mom was like, no, I'm not letting my son be involved in your sleazy bar gambling scheme.
Hillary [00:05:57] Gregg studied all of these things at home, but he didn't actually apply himself to what he was learning at school. He had horrible grades.
Gregg [00:06:04] I was awful at school. I mean, I was smart, but I didn't do well in school because it's kind of hard when you're beaten up every day to care about school and everything.
Chris [00:06:15] He had it a little tough. He was like the youngest kid in his grade. He was born on December 24th, Christmas Eve. I think most school systems now. Right, like if you're born after August, they bump you to the next year. That is because of the kids, like my brother, who was like the smallest scrappiest kid. On top of that, he and I were both just horrific late bloomers. And it just meant he was an outsider. He had bifocals and braces in third grade like he was just always an outsider.
Ken [00:06:42] Gregg definitely wasn't into school in eighth grade. I mean, if you looked at, like the standardized testing and the IQ, he should have been valedictorian.
Hillary [00:06:51] This is Gregg's dad, Ken.
Ken [00:06:52] I remember when this came around? I seem to remember something where he wasn't going to qualify for he didn't have the grades or they were only going to be looking at, you know, like the top performing students. And I don't recall the details, but he was shocked. And I think we were shocked that they picked him. They they might have had some little contest.
Hillary [00:07:12] It wasn't a contest. But Gregg did luck out because of his obsession with maps and atlases and USA adjacent countries. His mom, Sally, explains.
Sally [00:07:22] Well, he was always interested in geography, looking at maps, things like that. Even when he was really little, he used to be very annoyed because he said we didn't know enough about our neighbors to the north. So he was always studying Canadian maps and things.
Hillary [00:07:36] He'd look at the globe, see a country, and then try to find a book about that place or search for more info in his family's set of old encyclopedias. And then there was his other hobby.
Gregg [00:07:47] And then another thing I was really into when I was young, were disasters and tragedies.
Ken [00:07:51] We used to call the master of disaster.
Gregg [00:07:54] We had these like annuals. It would be like 1982 in review and I would go through them. I was automatically drawn to to the disasters.
Hillary [00:08:03] When Gregg showed up to tape his episode of Carmen Sandiego, he had no clue how much of a disaster was happening behind the scenes.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:08:11] Gregg Gethard. Elon Goldenberg. Today's episode: The Lincoln Conspiracy. And this man, the special agent in charge of training new recruits, it's Greg Lee
Greg Lee [00:08:31] The first season, it was a disastrous for stopping, changing rules, things falling apart, things fallen over.
Hillary [00:08:38] This is the show's host Greg Lee.
Greg Lee [00:08:40] It was really, really tough those first years. And I just remember after the first day, which I can't remember how many hours it was. But I don't know Lynn and I just looked at each other, we just thought, this is going to be impossible. We're going to be dead before this season's over.
Hillary [00:08:55] And in addition to the mess going on behind the scenes with the producers and the crew, adding Gregg to the mix only amplified the chaos.
Chris [00:09:03] It really was this like legendary disaster. I think I'd say disaster. This was like a legendary incident in my mind as a kid for a number of reasons. And it has gone through it went through a number of phases for why it was legendary.
Gregg [00:09:17] I just remember thinking: It was just this is the most ridiculous day of my life.
Chris [00:09:20] My brother has told this story many times in a comedic context. And I'm a comedian, too. I'll tell you, both me and my brother we are big bullshitters. Part of telling a good story in a comedy context is you like trim the fat of the details that don't matter. You amplify the details of the ones that do.
Hillary [00:09:36] Gregg made TV history with his Carmen Sandiego appearance. Well, maybe not official TV history, but it was something. For Chris, the excitement built from the moment he found out Gregg was going to be on the show.
Chris [00:09:49] I remember being so psyched that something exciting and cool was happening to my brother because I felt like he really deserved it. That's like the number one thing I keep thinking about was I was excited for him, you know, too, to be told your brother is going to be on TV. That's like the craziest thing in the world.
Hillary [00:10:13] Gregg missed a day of school for the taping.
Gregg [00:10:16] The first time we went, my parents took me.
Chris [00:10:18] I didn't go to the taping. I was in school. If I remember right my dad went. That's a big deal. My father was one of the biggest workaholics you'll ever meet. So I remember feeling like this is huge. If my dad is taking off work, that's huge. And my mom went too I think. My mom fears New York City. My mom in 2018 still thinks that New York is New York of 1977 where there's like junkies sleeping on every corner and the Bronx is on fire.
Hillary [00:10:49] When Gregg, Ken and Sally showed up to the taping, they were still filming the previous episode. The production team was so far behind that they sent Gregg and the other contestants home. Greg's memory of the taping is...
Gregg [00:11:01] The first time both my parents went the second time, just my dad went. My mom was like thought it was really boring.
Hillary [00:11:07] The rest of the Gethard clan tells the story as if Ken and Sally were there for both tapings.
Chris [00:11:12] I remember feeling like the fact that my parents both went to New York to go to this thing meant that it was like the coronation of the King of England.
Sally [00:11:20] I remember we had instructions about where we were going to be, the time and all. What he had to wear. We had to go over to New York City. I always hated New York City, so I wasn't thrilled about that part. But off we went. Just got there and set the room with a lot of parents. We weren't in the studio. That was only for the kids.
Ken [00:11:43] I just remember it was incredibly boring. You know, it was being stuck inside this room all day long.
Hillary [00:11:50] The parents were in a special waiting room.
Pinch [00:11:52] I was the editorial director.
Hillary [00:11:54] This is Pinch. She worked on Carmen Sandiego from the beginning.
Pinch [00:11:58] But I worked closely with the rest of that crew who did deal with the parents. And early on I helped shape the show. I mean, I was one of the producers who helped figure out the logistics of the show.
Hillary [00:12:08] In the early days of filming. She agrees that things were a logistical nightmare.
Ken [00:12:12] I guess I could never figure out what was going on, why it took so long to go through this. And there they had a retape. They had to retape things. It was just, you know, something, I think, what, two hours at the mos, we wound up being there, like six or seven hours. And I thought that was tough on the kids. And here they are sitting around this whole time.
Gregg [00:12:32] I wasn't like, oh, I'm going to be on TV. This is fancy. I remember just thinking why it was so surreal. Why am I in a dressing room? Why am I getting makeup on me? There's a P.A. who was like, anything you guys need, any water or anything like that? Just a snack. I remember like this is an adult, like this is isn't how adults, this isn't how adults treat children.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:13:01] OK, gumshoes, what we're going to do is start you off with 50 Acme crime bucks, any time you answer a question correctly, we'll give you 10 more crime bucks. And the two of you with the highest scores at the end of this round will then proceed to the next round. OK, OK, cheif let's go.
Hillary [00:13:13] Greg found with Prema Thermoli and Elon Goldenberg. Once the contestants were brought out and named and the basic premise of the game was laid out, they had to answer the first question and...
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:13:24] The answer we are looking for is Taipei. Nice job, Elon. Good job. Nice job, you guys, OK, so that means Prima you have 50, Gregg you have 50. Elon you're ahead right now with 60.
Hillary [00:13:34] And then there were the contestant intros.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:13:36] But before we get too far into this case, let's find out a little bit more about you detectives. Shall we?
Hillary [00:13:39] Prema goes first. She talks about her hobby, which is Indian dancing, and then she's asked what she wants to be when she grows up. And she says, a neurosurgeon, Gregg goes next.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:13:50] Now, Gregg, you have some interesting career plans. Tell us about your career plans.
Hillary [00:13:54] Greg Lee remembers why the show included contestant interviews.
Greg Lee [00:13:57] You know, here's the thing. I remember that again early on. One of the things that that we thought and I think still probably is true, the idea was that viewers at home want to cheer. They want to find some reason to cheer for somebody. So you need to have a short interview with the kids to find out what they're into, kind of like they do on Jeopardy, I guess, or any other game show.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:14:20] Now, Gregg, you have some interesting career plans. Tell us about your career plans.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:14:24] Yeah, I'd like to be either a stand up comedian or a baseball manager.
Gregg [00:14:28] I'd watch Carson and Letterman and Saturday Night Live and then we got Comedy Central around then. Then there was constantly standup on TV, Carrot Top had entered my life. The Amazing Jonathan, who was a comedy magician who was pretty big for a little bit. Emo Phillips. Judy Tenuta, "Hey Pigs" like with the accordion. And I remember when they asked us, like, what you want to be when you grow up. I remember the PA when I said.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:14:52] Yeah, I'd like to be either a stand up comedian or a baseball manager
Gregg [00:14:57] Just his eyes lit up because he probably even though they had only been taping this thing for two weeks, I can imagine he's like, I can't talk to any more prospective 12 year old surgeons. I just can't talk to kids whose main hobby is studying for the LSATs already. And I'm just like, yeah, I'll be either a standup comedian or a baseball manager. And I remember him distinctly asking me, like, do you have any material? Like I'm 12, like, I don't have a hard five yet.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:15:24] Standup comedian or a baseball manager. Oh wait, come over here, they just want you to talk into the microphone quite that closely, it's working fine. OK. So you want to be a stand up comedian. Tell me what kind of jokes do you do?
Gregg [00:15:34] He was like, we got to find you a joke, we've got to find you a joke to tell, like, do you have any any any jokes or anything? And I'm like, no, no, no, I don't I don't have any anything in mind.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:15:43] So you want to be a standup comedian? Tell me what kind of jokes you do.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:15:47] Well, um I make funny phone calls to one 800 numbers. Yeah. I make I make fake stories and go to random people who I don't know and I tell knock knock jokes.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:00] You tell knock, knock jokes You can tell he's a comedian by the way he's working that microphone you guys.
Hillary [00:16:03] Each time that Gregg starts to speak, he leans in way too close to the microphone.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:08] You can just stand up right there, Gregg. It's cool. Just stand right there. That's cool the way it is. You tell knock knock jokes. Yeah.
Ken [00:16:13] It didn't wind up being on the air, but he told some joke. Not that it was a dirty joke, but it wasn't quite appropriate for TV. So they retaped and they gave him some corny joke to tell.
Gregg [00:16:24] He told me the joke to tell. I don't know how he came up with that joke or what, but that's when the song, The Humpty Dance was just on the air then, that like that was like on the radio. And I remember thinking I was funny, but I also remember like thinking it was dumb at the same time, but I didn't want to say it was dumb. So he's like, yeah, when you do it you got to like dance and stuff like that. Everyone's got to love it.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:47] Would you guys like to hear a knock knock joke said, OK, Gregory lay went on us, let's hear it.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:53] Knock Knock.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:53] Who's there?
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:53] Humpty.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:16:53] Humpty who?
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:17:01] They call me humpty. I really am kind of funky.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:17:05] Gregg ladies and gentlemen. Come on. Come on.
Hillary [00:17:09] While Gregg delivers the punch line. He dances with choreography. That is one part jumping up and down and one part arms flailing.
Chris [00:17:17] That joke he told is one of the worst jokes ever told. Like I knew about the joke before we watched it, I remember him saying I told him I wanted to be a comedian. They wrote me a joke. It didn't go well, like he knew that. And I remember just waiting for the joke and laughing so hard and I can still see it in my brain. And I've watched the clip a number of times, but this has never left me that little dance he does with the the varsity jacket. Right. With the red and the yellow sleeves. He starts like giggling because he knows it's a disaster. He can feel that it's not going well. He doesn't really know what the joke means because the joke, to be fair to him, doesn't really make much sense. You know, they had him standing on a platform because he was so short. And when he's doing that dance, I'm pretty sure he slips off of it and you can see him scanning the crowd who are all kids his age, and you just see him giggling cause it's not going well. And there's this combination in his eyes that is so Gregg Gethard where there's like a lot of panic and fear, but also he's instantaneously amused at how bad it's going. And if you ever meet my brother, that's his sense of humor to this day. He loves nothing more than like a train wreck than a public train wreck.
Gregg [00:18:33] I still get nervous and, like, still don't want to see this, but I love it at the same time, like this confusion and a light cascade of boos. I remember thinking as soon as I bombed when that joke bombed, thinking this is so much better than if this was a funny joke, like I remember, like I didn't get upset or anything. I remember thinking that was so insanely funny, so ridiculously funny.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:19:04] Tough, tough crowd, tough crowd.
Greg Lee [00:19:06] You know, I'm not the greatest interviewer and they're kids. We all just want to keep playing the game. And so, you know, who knows how well some of those interviews would go. But I thought, well, that was one of the interviews and one of the responses from a kid that I thought went pretty good because, I mean, it just seemed like, well, here's a kid, he's got some life. This kid's kind of funny. This kid's messing around.
Chris [00:19:27] The host realizes, like, I can't control this kid. The lunatic is running the asylum on this one. I also I swear to you, I've watched back the footage and I think maybe this isn't true. In my mind when he tells the joke, the studio audience boos. When I watch that footage back, it's not there. But for years in my heart, I believe that he got booed by studio audience of children
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:19:52] This is going to be great.
Hillary [00:20:02] Before, during and after the joke, Gregg is told by host Greg Lee that he's speaking too close to the microphone. It keeps happening even when he is told not to like when Greg says:.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:20:14] I make phony phone calls to one 800 numbers.
Hillary [00:20:16] He dives towards the mic like a pelican, scooping up fish from the ocean. Gregs repeated leaning into the microphone is all thanks to being co captain of Edison Middle School's Quiz Bowl team. At practice they were trained to lean in as close as possible to the mic.
Gregg [00:20:34] We would practice leaning into the microphone because you had to do it. So it was just like muscle memory. There is a microphone. You lean into it.
Hillary [00:20:41] The Quiz Bowl matches took place at other schools.
Gregg [00:20:43] It was on a stage. It was on like the middle school stage, a sit behind the lunch table and you'd have a microphone ahead of you. They were such sticklers for that leaning into the microphone and the judge like, can you repeat that by leaning into the microphone? They would do that if you didn't elocute properly. If you mumbled it in Quiz Bowl, if you mumbled your answer and did not lean into the microphone and clearly state something along the lines of "The capital of Ohio is Columbus..."
Hillary [00:21:10] Gregg leans into my microphone.
Gregg [00:21:12] You would be risked not getting points for that question.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:21:16] Yeah, I'd like to be either a stand up comedian or a baseball manager,
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:21:22] A stand up comedian or baseball manager. Oh wait, come over here. They just don't want you to talk into the microphone quite that closely. It's on. It's working fine. You're OK.
Gregg [00:21:29] Every single time they'd say on there "Gregg!", Greg Lee's like "Greg you don't have to lean into the mic like that Gregg. You don't have to lean to the mic like that. Right. During a break they were like scolding me. Like, you cannot lean into the microphone because at first they're being like, nice. It didn't register like a five like I was told like nine times. And the last time sternly told by a production assistant on a PBS game show. That's when it finally clicked.
Chris [00:21:53] The moment, the moment that makes it this weirdly underground iconic thing, the moment that makes it happen. The most important moment in that footage that has made it live on is when the host tells him, hey, Gregg, buddy, I'm telling you again, I'm being serious. You really don't need to lean over on the mic like that. And he's calling him buddy in that way, that when you watch it as an adult, you know, like that's an adult trying to help a kid not humiliate himself. Hey, buddy, you never call a kid buddy, unless you're really like, hey, buddy, you know, it's like that tone, hey, buddy, you are going to lean in so close. The mic will pick you up. My brother immediately leans in close to the mic and is like, yes, OK, thank you. Like the next sentence, he says, whatever it is, he leans right into the mic and you see the host crack up. You hear him and you see that the host cannot hold it. And he's getting such a kick out of my brother. But he's also just so visibly confused that what he's dealing with.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:22:47] You can tell he's a comedian by the way he's working that microphone, you guys, you can just stand right up there, g=Gregg. It's cool. Just stand right there. That's cool the way it is.
Greg Lee [00:22:55] The thing with the microphone was just that we were trying to help him because I kept getting information from the booth saying, you know, that I needed to have him come off the microphone because it's going to get distorted. So I think it was more to have him, you know, just kind of relax and know that he was being picked up fine.
Hillary [00:23:15] Elon introduced himself after Gregg. He wants to be a lawyer and then the three of them answer Geography question after Geography question, and then...
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:23:26] I think it's time for the Lightning Round to give you a chance now to pick up some extra crime bucks. What's going to happen is I have three questions here. Each one of them is worth five crime bucks. Buzz in first and give me the right answer, I'll give you that five crime bucks. OK, listen closely. Here we go.
Hillary [00:23:38] The questions continue and Gregg likes to buzz in immediately. Sometimes he gets the answers before hearing all of the multiple choice options and sometimes he buzzes in way too fast and gets it wrong. There were tons of questions about Canada and Gregg got all of those. His concerns for his neighbors of the North turned out to be valid.
Gregg [00:23:58] I spent so much time reading maps and atlases. I don't know why. I was just really drawn to it. I was always like reading about like other countries and things like that. I also had like a ticker tape parade where I took, like, all the toilet paper without permission and would just rip it up, just throwing it up in the air when the hostages from Iran were released.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:24:23] All right. Name the city gumshoes. Is it Bonn, Berlin or Vienna? Remember the clues that we heard, birthplace of Beethoven, Moondust, House of Parliament and Garden Park and Monster Church. Elon's ready. Gregg and Prema waiting on you. Gregg is ready so is Prema. Prema, what do you say? Vienna. Vienna. Gregg, what do you think? I say Bonn. Bonn. Elon. How about you? Vienna. Vienna. The answer we're looking for is Bonn. Nice job, Gregg. OK, so that means Prema you stay at sixty five, Gregg you moving ahead now with eighty five crume bucks and Elon you have 60.
Gregg [00:24:55] I remember kind of thinking it was like a little bit of a sense of destiny. I kind of remember the whole day thinking like I'm winning, like I'm winning this. Like, I was very confident because I had studied my ass off during that week. I'd already been looking at all this stuff my whole life. And I really went at it like I really was memorizing countries. And I'm like, I'm not losing this. If I lost, I would have been bawling on TV like it would've been a mess.
Hillary [00:25:18] Gregg was in the lead, but there was one more question in round one.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:25:22] Okay Gumshoes, listen close. Now it's time for the final clue this round, which means now you have to decide how much you want to risk. If you're right, we'll add that amount to your score. If you're not right we'll subtract it from your score. You can risk zero, 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 Acme crime bucks. OK, take a look right over here, if you will, please. Here's a portion of the world where we think that they're headed. Now, if you know a lot about this part of the world. You may want to risk a lot. If you don't know a lot about about this part of the world you may not want to risk quite so much. So take a look at the map and think about it.
Hillary [00:25:50] The part of the world that Greg Lee was referring to was the part of the world where they were filming the show. Prema and Greg and Elon lived there, so not much studying needed.
Gregg [00:26:01] You had to play with the points. You had to bet your points like Final Jeopardy and I bet way more points than I should have because I wanted to really beat Elon by a lot of points.
Hillary [00:26:09] Even though the final clue had to do with the northeast corridor of the United States, Gregg took a big risk with his wager and he was in jeopardy of losing round one.
Greg Lee [00:26:23] Well I mean, kids could cheat quite easily on that show. And they did. You know, it didn't happen a lot, but it absolutely happened. It was pretty easy to see what the next guy was pulling, what card they were pulling. You know, sometimes I would see it and sometimes they'd see it up in the booth. And when you saw it, it was pretty obvious, you know. And so instead of fairness to the other two kids, you have to make sure that kind of stuff doesn't happen.
Chris [00:26:44] He now says he cheated on purpose. That was not a thing he revealed for many years. I've always wondered how true that is.
Ken [00:26:52] He always talked about that. He said he did something and they had to redo it over. I don't remember that at all.
Sally [00:26:59] I remember hearing about that many years later, and I never believed that he really did that. I think he might have added for a little comedy value to the story.
Greg Lee [00:27:10] Is it possible? Yes, it's possible. And yeah, but I have no memory of it, to be honest with you, of what happened.
Hillary [00:27:17] Greg Lee goes through the clues and gives them the multiple choice answers: Newark, New Jersey, Philadelphia or Boston. Gregg, Prema and Elon already wagered and now they write down their answers. Elon goes first. He picks Boston and he's told that that's the right answer. Prema chooses Newark and now it's Gregg's turn. He also chooses Newark.
Gregg [00:27:40] I've always been a fan of cheating. I never cheated in school, but in general, since I love pro wrestling so much, I've always rooted for the bad guys. So I don't have a compunction in cheating in board games or anything like that, like on a test. No, way. I wouldn't do that. But in a setting like this, yes, I will cheat. I know I picked Newark and they're like Gregg, what's your answer? I hold Newark and I hold over my head and I'm like Boston. Like I try and sell it so bad with so much like I know I won. I just won. I'm in first place and then they're like, Gregg Gregg, you picked Newark your things says Newark, so I make myself cry. But I'm just like in retrospect, years later, I like they absolutely knew what I was trying to do. They just didn't want to pay overtime or, like, ruin this whole day of taping.
Chris [00:28:28] I remember understanding that it brought things to a halt during the actual taping. I remember hearing that my brother was very upset and I think my parents maybe had to, like, step in and defend him a little bit. But they were very confused as well. And I think they maybe went to bat for him and said he was just confused or the rules were confusing or something. I think they maybe had to like, say whatever is happening, sort it out, but don't put pressure on our kid.
Ken [00:28:54] I don't remember that at all. I don't remember anything going on. He's always said that that he did something where he anticipated the question or he answered late or something like that. But that I don't recall at all.
Sally [00:29:08] They had a hold up cards with their answers on them. And he knew he had the wrong answers. So he held up the card but said the right answer and they had to stop taping and everything. But I'm not quite sure what that was all about. I never thought it was kosher.
Hillary [00:29:38] Greg says that what actually ended up in that episode was a retaping of that segment.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:29:43] OK, guys, name the city is it Boston, Massachusetts, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or Newark, New Jersey. Okay up with an answer as quickly as you can. Remember the clues that we heard Pops concert at Symphony Hall, conductor John Williams and Copley Square. When you get an answer lay down right there in front of you. OK. Gregg have you got an answer yet. Great. If you got an answer, you lay down right there in front of you. OK, Elon you have sixty crime bucks. We're going to start with you before you show me your answer, how much did your risk?
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:08] Forty.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:08] Forty crime bucks. It'll give you one hundred if you're right. OK, what do you say?
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:12] Boston.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:14] Boston that's the answer we are looking for. Nice job, Elon. Good job. Takes you up to one hundred. You're in the lead. Prima you have seventy five. How much did you risk?
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:22] I risked 20.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:22] 20. This will put you back in the game if you are right. What did you say.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:25] I said Newark.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:25] Oh sorry. That's not the answer we are looking for. You are going to drop twenty. But this isn't over yet. Gregg you have ninety five crime bucks. First off, how much did you risk.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:33] Thirty.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:30:33] Thirty. If you're right then you and Elon will go to the next round. Would did you say?
Gregg [00:30:38] In the final episode that aired, I'm like uh Newark, it's like just an acting job and I know where to look because like I'm trying so hard not to laugh at the ridiculousness of what I just tried to do. Like I blatantly tried to cheat on a Nationally televised game show. And like, I got away with it, like I mean, I didn't get away with it how I wanted to get away with it. But I got away with not being kicked off of a nationally televised game show.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:31:04] Newark.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:31:04] Ooh Newark tough break, that's not the answer we're looking for. That will take you down thirty. But you still have sixty five. You're still in second place. Greg and Elon, you're going on to the next round. Nice job guys.
Pinch [00:31:12] We had a couple of cheaters. I want to say maybe three or four. I want to say that I remember Gregg because he was in one of those first few weeks of the show taping and that was like one of our first instances of someone cheating. So it was a big deal. Anybody who was on cans got called in and we were all discussing, oh, my God, what do we do? And, you know, his parents were upset and everyone was upset trying to figure out how do we reset this?
Hillary [00:31:48] Cheating or not, Gregg and Elon move on to round two, it's a match game and they volley back and forth.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:31:54] Gregg it's your turn, go ahead. Beacon Hill. Beacon Hill. Tourist Mecca. Go Gregg. Hines Auditorium. The auditorium. So you got the warrant. Can you find Robo. USS Constitution? Is he there? Yeah.
Hillary [00:32:06] Confetti drops from the ceiling and Gregg smiling steps in to it like a rain shower.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:32:13] Come on over here Gregg, be sure to get plenty of that on you dude. OK, look, pal, all you have to do now is take Robo and put him in jail. Nice job Gregory.
Gregg [00:32:25] It was just like this like sense of relief, I kind of knew it was going to happen. It's like how like I just one of those things, like, I know, I know I'm going to win this. I don't mean it like, in a sense of like I'm smarter and it's, you know, like like I'm going to win, like, out of a sense of arrogance is just like I felt like I was going to win it, not because of preparation. It just felt like this is a chapter of my life and this is how it will be written like this.
Hillary [00:32:52] Gregg moves on to round three. But before finding out what this round is all about, Gregg has to write down the name of the city he'd like to go to if he wins the grand prize. Greg says the producers told the kids that they could not write down Orlando or Los Angeles. Apparently, everyone wanted to win a trip to Disney and they needed more of a variety. So Gregg writes down Chicago.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:33:15] OK, Gregg, this is what it's all about. What you have to do now is track Carmen Sandiego through seven different countries. Identifying each country with the marker.
Hillary [00:33:21] Greg Lee brings Gregg over to a giant map of Africa painted on the floor. They stand at its northern point looking down on it. And next to them is a line of markers. They are taller than Gregg. In round three, Greg Lee rattles off a list of countries in Africa, and Gregg has to run across the entire continent putting down markers on the country's name.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:33:42] When you're right, you'll hear this sound. But when you're wrong, you hear this sound. Now, if you're wrong two times, don't worry about it. Leave the market where it is. If you're right, though seven times in 45 seconds, you will then win that trip to where you wrote in that portfolio. Sound good to you? Yeah. Sound good to you guys? Yeah. All right, c'mon Gregger let's do this thing, man. Let's get 45 seconds on the clock. You guys cheer them on. Here we go. Good luck, Gregg. On your mark. Get set. Go.
Gregg [00:34:05] And my strategy was if like if it's some country, I don't know what it is. I'm just going to go to the clearest country, the closest country that, I don't know, boom, boom. And then, like, what they'll say is, like, wrong. And there's a buzzer. And then you got to second guess and they just put in the next.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:34:20] Nope try it again. Try it again. Malawi. No come on this way Carmen went to South Africa.
Gregg [00:34:25] But then there's a couple like easy ones like it was like South Africa, Egypt, like Madagascar.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:34:33] You got it come on. Carmen went to Burkina Faso.
Gregg [00:34:36] I remember one of the ones I got that was right was Burkina Faso.
Ken [00:34:42] Burkina Faso. Yes.
Sally [00:34:43] When he was younger, maybe in sixth grade, they had to choose countries to do a report on. And he came home and said he chose this country called Burkina Faso, which I had never heard of in my entire life. And, you know, he couldn't pick like Ireland, Italy or something like... Burkina Faso. And that was one of the countries that he had to identify. So we knew right away where to run and put a little sign on it. And I don't think any other kid would have ever heard of Burkina Faso at that point.
Ken [00:35:18] He was going on and on about Burkina Faso for a while. I don't remember the context or the content, but Gregg who the hell even heard of this country, you know, and he's going on and on about Burkina Faso. I remember now where he's got this, but he's got to go planting the flags. And it was like the first country. And we're like, OK, how could this kid miss that. I forget what he did if he put it in the wrong country or he just he wasn't strong enough to carry these. You know, they had like flags and pictures like like a flower pot thing on the bottom. It was dragging this thing a little bit. So we thought, oh, Burkina Faso, he's going to get this. No problem. But he something got messed up. I think it might have been that he ran out of time.
Chris [00:36:00] I mean, when he gets Burkina Faso, you can't really front on that. Like, you can't pretend that's not impressive. That's a tiny nation. And if I remember right, I don't even know that that nation had existed for too many years before. I don't even know if that was like on a lot of maps that he would have been studying as a younger kid. I might be totally ignorant and wrong about that. You're going to want to fact check that one.
Hillary [00:36:22] Formally called the Republic of Upper Volta. The country was renamed Burkina Faso on August 4th, 1984
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:36:31] Carmen went to the Central African Republic. You got it. Carmen went to Uganda. Uganda. Come on, Gregg. You got it come on. Carmen went to Gabon, Gabon. No try it again He got five or six, he got five in 45 seconds, give him a nice round of applause you guys, that was close buddy. C'mere. That wasn't bad. I'll tell you sometimes Carmen is hard to catch.
Hillary [00:37:01] Carmen was hard to catch because the map of Africa was huge and the country markers were unwieldy and very heavy.
Gregg [00:37:07] I mean, they're probably 15 pounds, but I weighed like 65 pounds, like it's a large percentage of my body mass. I had to struggle with them. Like, I don't know what they would have done if they were any have at their five pounds heavier. I wouldn't have been able to lift and run with them. Like, I clearly cannot run to South Africa with this thing in any amount of time that is going to be fun for anyone to watch.
Greg Lee [00:37:28] Well, again, those got changed after the first year because for grown men, those were hard to carry around. As I recall, they were they were really heavy. And especially if you were a kid, they were almost impossible. I think the first year some kid threw one down so hard because it was so heavy by the time he reached where he needed to go, that the top came off and the light was flying everywhere. It was exciting to see, but it was, you know, they're just they were just all too heavy.
Chris [00:37:55] I think by the standards of the first season of Carmen Sandiego, the rule set was flawed. It's very hard to win the final map. My brother would have smoked that map. He was built to destroy that map. It was a flawed game.
Gregg [00:38:07] Like I was not upset that I did not win. I was I was just thinking like this is this silly? This is so ridiculous. Like, this is the most ridiculous thing I might ever do in my life.
TV Clip: Carmen Sandiego [00:38:19] Man, you've been great today. You've been doing a lot of hard work for us today. There's one more thing I want you to do. You know what it is? Do it. Rockapella.
Hillary [00:38:28] Do it. Rockapella.
Hillary [00:38:36] This episode of Rashomon is to be continued. In part two of the Gethard family we'll see the impact the show had on Greg after he taped it. There's no escaping Carmen, no matter how many decades have passed.
Hillary [00:38:51] This episode of Rashomon was produced by me, Hilary Rea. Thank you to the Gethards, Gregg, Chris, Sally and Ken. Thanks to Greg Lee and Pinch. Special thanks to Annie Celsi, Nicki Stein and TJ Hurley. Music in this episode is by Paul Defiglia. Check out his website https://pauldefiglia.com. Podcast artwork is by Thom Lessner. See the rest of his work at https://thomlessner.com. Theme song is courtesy of Ryan Cullinane. Make sure you follow us on Instagram and Twitter. We post extra family photos and other fun stuff. So please check us out there and visit https://rashomonpodcast.com for some cool bonus content.